Intermediate - Grammar: Indefiniteness

Rule #1: No tanween with ta3reef, no ta3reef with tanween

:)

conversations with the car...hmmm o car how i love thee!

The podcast teaches that tanween is not used for certain words in seven circumstances and enumerates them. I think I get that.

If I understand correctly, however, the lesson also teaches that a tanween "must" be used for certain words outside of those seven circumstances. Isn't that too strong a statement?

Wouldn't we qualify the "must" for example to say that the tanween must be used for certain words when the concept one wishes to express is a definite?

The transcript alludes to a certain qualification "in the cases of 'alraf3', 'alna9b' and 'aljar'" This I don't get. Not sure it was explained in the podcast.

In any event, would appreciate a little additional explanation from anyone here.

Dear Charles,

I haven’t posted any comments recently because I’m snowed under with work. At the moment I’m busy correcting exam scripts.

Here is some of the information you requested:

haaala (ﺤﺎﻠﺔ) al-jarr (ﺍﻠﺠﺮ): genitive case
haala (ﺤﺎﻠﺔ) al-nasb (ﺍﻠﻨﺼﺐ): accusative case
haala (ﺤﺎﻠﺔ) al-raf’ (ﺍﻠﺮﻓﻊ): nominative case

As I have pointed out elsewhere (see my comment on“Possessive Pronouns”), Arabic has a three-case system. There are inflectional endings for each case (e.g. -a, -an, -i, -in, -iina and -ayni for the accusative), and the rules governing the case system are quite complex.

I noticed a lot of mistakes in the podcast. “Qawaa’id” (ﻗﻮﺍﻋﺪ), for instance, means “rules”, not “grammars”. (Ehab and Mohamed always use the plural “grammars” incorrectly.). In the examples cited in the podcast “haaris” (ﺤﺎﺮﺲ) means “caretaker”, not “guard”, and “mihfadha” (ﻤﺤﻓﻈﺔ) means “satchel”, “schoolbag” or “briefcase” (not “wallet”). In this instance “mihfadha” must be a large heavy object. Even if a wallet is stuffed with banknotes it will not be so heavy that a human being will have difficulty in carrying it.

Dear Desmond,

I am not quite sure that you are completely right with your remark in regard to the word [ محفظة ].

Google Translate renders [ محفظة ] to “portfolio”; VerbAce’s online dictionary (www.verbace.com) renders [ محفظة ] to “wallet”; if you search in Verbace for “portfolio”, you get, amongst other words, also [ محفظة ]; if you search for wallet, you get again, amongst other words, [ محفظة ] .

So, the scope of the usage of the word [ محفظة ] seems to go farer than you indicated.

When I was in Dubai, I heard them use محفظة for wallet, and حارس for guard (as in someone who sits outside the property to protect it). Additionally, when I put قواعد in Google translate, it gave me 'grammar'.

@ tau

Dear tau,

Thank you for your prompt response to my comment. I am well aware that “mihfadha” (ﻤﺤﻓﻈﺔ) can mean “wallet” (cf. the podcast entitled “Bill’s on me”). In the present instance, however, the prepositional phrase (“despite its weight”) clearly shows that the object denoted by ﻤﺤﻓﻈﺔ is not a wallet. It must be a large heavy object like a briefcase containing a computer or a schoolbag full of books.

If you consult the German-Arabic Lessan dictionary you’ll find that ﻤﺤﻓﻈﺔ is rendered not only as “Brieftasche”, but also as “Schulmappe”, and “Schulmappe” (schoolbag) would clearly make sense here.

It is interesting to note that in the podcast under discussion the linguistic term “ism (ﺍﺴﻢ) mawsuul (ﻤﻮﺼﻮﻝ)” has been rendered incorrectly as “relative noun”. There is no such thing as a relative noun. “Ism (ﺍﺴﻢ) mawsuul (ﻤﻮﺼﻮﻝ)” is a relative pronoun. It is true that “ism” sometimes means “noun”, but when it is followed by “mawsuul” it corresponds to “pronoun”.

All these errors betray a fatal propensity to set up one-to-one correspondences between lexical items belonging to different languages. I could cite numerous examples from the other podcasts. The noun “nedhaam” (ﻨﻈﺎﻢ), for instance, is invariably rendered as “system” although it has at least nine English equivalents.

@ ArabicLover

You’re perfectly right. “mihfadha” (ﻤﺤﻓﻈﺔ) can mean “wallet”, and “haaris” (ﺤﺎﺮﺲ) can mean “guard”.

I think you’ve misunderstood my objections. The translations I have cited are wrong because the translator has failed to take account of the context. Under normal circumstances a school will not be guarded by an armed man, though it might be guarded by soldiers or armed policemen if terrorists have threatened to attack it. Similarly, you don’t say “He carried the wallet in spite of its weight”, though you might say “The ants managed to carry the wallet away in spite of its weight”. This is because a wallet is a small light object even when it is stuffed with bank notes. When a word has several meanings, common sense will normally enable you to choose the correct equivalent.

hi arabiclover, yes i have heared those words used the way our teachers use them , by northafricans and syrians, but i never doubted for a second that our teachers are correct , so it seemed inane to get into a conversation about it .I feel this constant carping about their english is detrimental to the freedom of the teachers to do their job, which is creative.I am english from london, and their english is fine , in fact FOR ME it is real english that I grew up with and I enjoy listening to them with my morning coffee, I miss hearing that real stuff as i have spent my life with teachers abroad and we all speak a sort of influenced english which lacks reality, although it is of course "correct" for the few who spend their time worrying about such stuff.I do not bother about scribbling correct english here as you will often note, my lack of basic rules like capitals , etc, my only aim here is arabic, english chat is for those who are not from england or experts like desmond, to each his own, although it wastes my time when i could be learning a bit more arabic, and over years is a loss for me, but this place is not very expensive and the teaching is really top notch.

Talking about definiteness of nouns in Arabic... the word الله (allaahu) is special; it is always considered as a definite noun.

@ Vinod

That’s because the term “Allah” (ﷲ) is derived from a contraction of the definite article “al-” and the noun “'ilaah” (ﺇﻠﻪ). “Allah” literally means “the deity”. Incidentally, the first letter of “Allah” is a special form of 'alif known as “'alif wasla hamzatu”. “Wasla” means “elided”.

@ berry

You don't like my comments, and I don't like yours. Your arguments are so illogical and incoherent that it would be a waste of time to discuss them.

@Desmond -thanks for the explanation well above. I think I got it on another hearing of the podcast and in particular the initial examples using the tanween. If I understand correctly, the tanween is used to express indefinite concepts ("a" bird) within the three cases. Quite a good podcast I believe, at least from my level.

@Desmond Im not sure if anyone else cited you for this or not (I'll read comments when Im done) but - you are incorrect. I do believe the scope of your vocabulary is limited in some areas. First of all, حارس DOES mean "guard", and from this you can conclude that it can also mean caretaker, since a guard is only dispatched to guard or to take care of something. Even if that was not a gaurd's duty, the fact of the matter is that the word حارس DOES mean guard.

Secondly, the word محفظة DOES mean wallet. Perhaps the dictionary you are using only shows one meaning for a word, or maybe you take the first word that show in the definition list, but we all know that Arabic is vast.

If you need a confirmation of what I have stated thus far, you can refer to the podcast itself or to another dictionary.

@Desmond - once again, that is incorrect. The word "Allah" is the proper term for the Creator, it is not derived from anywhere. It appears that you can break it up into ال اله but that's only how it appears. Kinda like how objects in mirror are closer than they appear, you know? ;)

The Arabic name Allah and Allah Himself cannot be compared to anything, period.

@ aliyah.m

You have misunderstood the objections I have raised, and your assumptions about the way I use reference works are incorrect. I am a professional linguist and an expert in lexicology, lexicography and translation studies.

Re-read my comments. I have nothing to add to what I have already said about “haaris” (ﺤﺎﺮﺲ) and “mihfadha” (ﻤﺤﻓﻈﺔ). (I apologise for the winking eyes in the brackets. They are generated automatically when I click on “Add comment”).

Our views on the origin of the word “Allah” (ﷲ) are diametrically opposed. My assertion is based on a linguistic analysis, while yours is based on a theological hypothesis.

*sigh*

naughty, naughty desmond...lol.

@ aliyah.m

Your "sigh" is one of the funniest comments on this website.

@ berry

I am an unrepentant sharp-tongued critic.

@ "The desmond show", I use words to communicate , you use them to try to impress others .This started with your claim that arab speaking teachers knew less about the meanings of a couple of simple nouns than you, a student who does not speak arabic unless of course , your blog is as misleading as the rest of your persona.We had a a very disagreeble parrot at one time, he was he was loud and savage and nipped anyone who came close enough , but he had a saving grace, when the music of "Marching through Georga "played he would do a charming little dance on his perch, so we named him George , and were rather fond of him despite his lack of social skills.Do you do any little hod dances at all old boy? just a suggestion , smile.......

@berry - انا اوافقك.

And now now boys, can't we all just get along? :p

@ berry

You have provoked me several times, and my anger has been simmering for months. Your latest provocation calls for a tough response. Since you’ve chosen to be rude, I shall not mince my words.

It is incorrect to assert that I merely write in order to impress others. My communicative intentions vary from case to case (e.g. requesting or providing information, expressing agreement or disagreement, etc.). If you are impressed by my comments, so much the better.

You say you “use words to communicate”. If you want people to think you’re a nutcase, you’ve definitely chosen the right communicative strategy. If, however, you want your readers to understand you, you’ve chosen the wrong strategy. You’ve produced some of the weirdest crap on the Internet, and your bizarre idiolect is reminiscent of the utterances of patients suffering from severe brain damage or severe personality disorders. Reading your texts is like trying to ride a bicycle through deep snow.

You have completely misunderstood my comments on “haaris” (ﺤﺎﺮﺲ) and “mihfadha” (ﻤﺤﻓﻈﺔ). My objections were about translation equivalents, not comprehension. Any native speaker of Arabic will know exactly what these words mean in a given context, but finding the correct English translation equivalents is an entirely different matter.

If you don’t believe what I’ve said about your communicative skills, I’ll prove my assertions by analysing some excerpts from your stupidest comments.

thank you desmond for your feedback,I like to know that i retain my skills in producing required reactions when dealing with sociopaths, as a therapist I am looking forward to seeing clearly how you misuse your god given talents here.Sadly i have very little time to get into a peeing contest with skunk,as I have a life am off to north africa , i hope my little ii´S have niggled you a little more, simmer on .....it must be most uncomfortable to feel like that....I feel great desi-old simmer.

@ berry

Your latest comment is a typical specimen of the nauseating drivel that oozes from your disordered mind.

The comments section should remain a forum for stimulating and worthwhile ideas or questions about Arabic and - why not - friendly jesting. I hope this is the last time it has been abused as an outlet for offensive remarks.

@ KarenFaucheux

I agree, Karen. I think an immediate cease-fire would be in the best interests of the Arabicpod community. I have told berry what I think of him, and I hope that he will refrain from further attacks.

of course you areright karen, however the man is using warlike vocabulary and a reader of the thread can see that.The arabic word nyya ,( i do not know how it is written), means intention,OR where a person is coming from, if i shower to clean my body , it is not the same as if i shower to enter the mesjed..the nyya is important.
also there is a hadiith which states that it is a duty to confront injustice in public.This picking on poeple has gone on for a long time, and if it still goes on after my ramadan visit, i shall defend myself and others, as it is mostly women or teachers that bear the brunt of it.These awful comments would have really have hurt most old poeple, elhandullilah , i have the good fortune to be articulate and get a lot of good strokes from the well -intentioned, so i simply see it for what it is and pay no heed.

desmond, you tried to bully what you thought was a mentally retarded old geezer, and have found out that it was not a good idea, so back off , and do not pretend it is for arabic pod,you dont need to read my manic ramblings, and i can ignore your webfishings.I will be happy to call it a day, leave it there.

@ berry

I thought you'd agreed to the cease-fire. Don't start off all over again.

I didn't try to bully you. I merely retaliated when you attacked me, and I'm glad I've now told you exactly what I think of you.

And don't you dare to threaten me! I'm now firmly convinced that you are mentally deranged, and I refuse to engage in any further discussions with you.

one of us is certainly not sane....lol

ههههه يا إلهي...!

ولهذا السبب انا لست متزوجة لول!